This is part two of our conversation with Michael Wilcox, and if you haven’t heard part one yet, it helps set up some important context for this episode. This is really not an interview so much as a story Michael tells: the story of his father, who navigated life in the mid-20th century as a gay man and a Latter-day Saint.

This story delves into the messy and painful predicaments his family faced, when reality failed to fit the predictable ideal. It also offers a glimpse into the experience of an LGBTQ member of the church several decades ago, before we became accustomed to talking about it as a community. And we want to emphasize that we’re not sharing this story because of its outcome, and in fact, quite the opposite: we found in this story the beautiful insight that we can release ourselves completely from judging others and love without an agenda—and it’s the relationships free of judgment and agendas that become celestial in and of themselves.

We want to thank Michael for being incredibly honest and vulnerable here, and for coming on to share so generously with us again.